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Author Topic: Israel - Another View from Neturei Karta  (Read 4590 times)
Marty Tennant
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« on: July 19, 2006, 08:06:12 PM »

I've always been fascinated with a group of Orthodox Jews known as Neturei Karta.

These Jews believe that the continuing sins of the ancient Jews resulted in them losing their Holy Land, and that the modern day restoration of Israel is not from God, and therefore doomed.

They are pro-Palestinian and anti-Zionist.

With all the conflict in the area, I think this view deserves another look.

Most will say that anti-Zionism (opposing the establishment of modern Israel) is anti-Semetic (anti-Jew).  I do not agree, and neither do these Orthodox Jews.

Here is a frequently asked question entry point to their website.

http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/FAQs/index.cfm

I encourage discussion of this issue, from both religious and non-religious thinkers.

While I find it virtually impossible that the current illegitimate government of Israel will roll over and give up the Jewish State, I find the perspective of Neturei Karta, from a metaphysical standpoint, quite in line with my views on the ongoing conflict and its root cause.
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Christian Skeptic
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« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2006, 10:20:11 PM »

http://desip.igc.org/InTheBeginning.html

Marty, here is a link that shows Israel is nothing more than a terrorist state.

June 22nd will be the 60th anniversary of the King David Hotel bombing.

Interesting reading.
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« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2006, 06:13:18 AM »

The root cause of the conflict is Hezbollah and Iran. They want democracy out of the middle east starting with Israel then Lebanon. Then  they want to kill Americans and Christians. This can be accomplished by Iran acquiring nuke's. If Israel were to throw all their weapons into the sea we would soon witness a holocaust. Israel must defend themselves or face annihilation.
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Marty Tennant
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« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2006, 07:52:19 AM »

Jews were living alongside Arabs/Palestinians peacefully before the modern state of Israel was created.  Why do you say the root cause of the conflict is Iran/Hezbollah?
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« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2006, 08:12:58 AM »

two concepts:  tribalism and jack's older brother's idea of "territorial imperative."   the problems in the middle east are deeply embedded in tribalism, over which has been placed a template which includes power, oil, land of one's fathers, ad nauseam.  theodor herzl's zionism and the hasadim are just contemporary and necessary arguments to explain away ancient animosities, as are pan-arabists and the proponents of a theocracy.  the extremists of all religions, be they muslim, jew or christian (or others) are all nutbags, armed with the fervor of their beliefs and the knowledge that god is on their side -- and only their side.
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Marty Tennant
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« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2006, 08:58:29 AM »

The Holy Land Grant is over.  I say to hell with the modern state of Israel.  We do nothing but promote continued conflict in the region by our support of their terrorist state.
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afdip
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« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2006, 01:24:57 PM »

and why would you choose one side over the other?
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Ilya Kuryakin
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« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2006, 01:28:14 PM »

Marty, I'm really starting to come around to your way of thinking on the whole Israel thing and the same goes for Jordan.  The more I read, the more I think there may be some vast, Zionist conspiracy to take over the Middle East.

I'm even starting to wonder about the "facts" surrounding the holocaust.
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sad
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« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2006, 01:29:23 PM »

Hey "jack", enoy marty's kool aid.
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Ilya Kuryakin
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« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2006, 01:31:25 PM »

That's really funny.  Do you support the existence of Israel?  Why or why not?
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afdip
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« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2006, 01:42:40 PM »

the question should be why support the existence of any of the artificially-formed entities (countries) in the middle east.  most arose from the tribal fiefdoms in the vacuum formed by the absence of the ottoman empire following the end of wwi . . . think back folks, the treaty of versailles, the balfour agreement, ad nauseam.  based on the sterling logic applied by the powers who reformed the region according to their particular national interests,  the state of israel fits right into the puzzle seamlessly.

as for the holocaust . . . i believe the german solution (final) qualifies as "holocaust," but not just because of 6 million jews exterminated.  let's not forget about the 900,000 gypsies, 1/3 of the population of yugoslavia and 20 million + soviets.  to deny this is to really show you are beyond redemption (whomever your god is).
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Ilya Kuryakin
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« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2006, 01:52:57 PM »

I don't condone killing anyone, especially not for their race or religion, but those gypsies sure are a pain in the behind.  I can't tell you how many times they stole from my friends and me when I lived in Andalucia.  Sneaky people with small hands shoud not be trusted.

If the Germans' Final Solution were real, then I say yes, that was a holocaust.  Still, one has to wonder whether the Jewish controlled media blew it out of proportion to garner sympathy and weasel (not Wiesel) their way into a great piece of property on the Mediterranean coast.
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Marty Tennant
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« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2006, 02:11:16 PM »

I've been to Auschwitz and seen the Holocaust first hand.  Yes, it happened. 

I am not anti-Jew.  Heck, I've got Jews in my family thru marriage.  They of course support the state of Israel.  But they are reform Jews.

My interest in this subject, as seen by my first post, is in the subject of Zionism.  Bernard Baruch was against it, as were the Chief Rabbis of Jerusalem.  I'm looking at Israel as a secular state that is essentially bogus from a Biblical standpoint.  And we wonder why there is so much trouble there.

Afdip brings up a good point.  We have an overlay of national borders in the Middle East that were mainly of British making.  Similar to Eastern Europe with their forced nationalistic groupings that fell apart with the fall of communism.

The other reason for my interest in this subject is that I see the current hatred of the US in the eyes of our support for Israel.  Would they stop hating us if we stopped supporting Israel.  Probably not.  We are seen as a bully without Israel.

Did the establishment of the modern state of Israel bring about much of the bloodshed we see since it occurred?  I think so.  Will it go away?  Probably not.

In this respect, I am concerned that we are in fact seeing the beginning of WW3.  Who knows where it will lead?  Ready to take on Iran, or should be just let Israel take them on with a surgical strike?
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Ilya Kuryakin
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« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2006, 02:33:02 PM »

I've been to Dachau outside Munich and to the Anne Frank house in Amsterdam.  Both are chilling reminders of the past, or at least what we're supposed to know about it.  I am also blessed with Jewish friends and a couple relatives, so I'm certainly not against them as a people or a religion.
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Marty Tennant
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« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2006, 06:19:50 PM »



These guys must really screw with the worldview of Democrats and Republicans.

Democrats love the Jewish vote for their liberal bias.

Republicans love Israel because of the anti-terror stance of Israel and because of the religious conservative's support of Israel.

Tomorrow is the 60th anniversary of the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem.

Innocent lives were taken.  Israeli terrorists took them.  Will the world even stop to reflect on this and the irony that it represents?
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Marty Tennant
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« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2006, 07:16:10 AM »

http://waldo.villagesoup.com/guestcolumns/story.cfm?storyID=75732

Excellent perspective.
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Marty Tennant
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« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2006, 08:54:17 AM »

Rubillo muses on Armageddon in the Georgetown Times.

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=16957951&BRD=2081&PAG=461&dept_id=385207&rfi=6
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Ilya Kuryakin
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« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2006, 09:14:51 AM »

That was the first piece credited to Mr. Rubillo that I've enjoyed reading.  I look forward to seeing more.
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