Author Topic: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing  (Read 10229 times)

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Georgetown Democrat

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Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« on: January 13, 2010, 01:26:15 AM »
A legislative panel this morning gave another $100 million taxpayer-funded gift to the Boeing Co., bringing the total state bond package for a new assembly plant in North Charleston to at least $270 million.

In two unanimous votes, eight members of the S.C. Joint Bond Review Committee authorized the sale of up to $100 million in general obligation bonds – which taxpayers will have to repay with interest – for the project.

Lawmakers had not previously revealed that bond amount to the public. It is in addition to $170 million in economic development bonds that the General Assembly unanimously authorized for Boeing in a special session Oct. 28.

In a special investigative series launched on Monday, The Nerve revealed that the Boeing incentives package would cost state taxpayers at least tens of millions of dollars more – and possibly several hundred million more – than what lawmakers have said publicly since rushing through the deal in October.

http://thenerve.org/storiespage/10-01-12/Panel_Approves_Another_100_Million_for_Boeing.aspx?searchid=f16e8d0b-4be1-4759-a0ef-bb64b7abff65&nocomments=true

Marty Tennant

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Re: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2010, 09:11:37 AM »
Glad to see a place like thenerve.org.  They look like they just popped up.  I like the fact that they have veteran reporters and citizen reporters too!

http://www.thenerve.org

Check it out!
Notice:  All posts made by me are my OPINION.  I am not responsible for any comments by others!  The Citizens' Report is provided as a public service to the citizens of Georgetown County for them to report and comment on the news.

Georgetown Democrat

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Re: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2010, 07:25:08 PM »
The Nerve this afternoon submitted written questions to spokespersons for the Budget and Control Board, Commerce and the Treasurer’s Office about why Boeing needs the up-front money or what state surplus funds will be used for the loan. State lawmakers returned Tuesday to a new legislative session facing an estimated $563 million hole to file in next fiscal year’s general fund budget.

http://thenerve.org/storiespage/10-01-13/Boeing_Bond_Deal_A_400_Million_Taxpayer_Tab.aspx?searchid=bc36f661-8f0f-4bd9-a743-3ef98f6fc572&nocomments=true

Marty Tennant

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Re: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2010, 07:58:31 PM »
Jamie, I'm always concerned about the cost benefit ratio of government expenditures vs. taxed received from new jobs.

Is that your concern?  Of course, we have a budget hole, and that will need to be patched.  I'm glad to see that we are going to possibly raise the tax on cigarettes.

Point blank question.  If these were union jobs, would you be so concerned?
Notice:  All posts made by me are my OPINION.  I am not responsible for any comments by others!  The Citizens' Report is provided as a public service to the citizens of Georgetown County for them to report and comment on the news.

Georgetown Democrat

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Re: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2010, 08:41:39 PM »
Yes. I would. It's really embarrassing to have a state throw money at one company when they have not guaranteed they're here for the long haul.
Who's to say they won't just jump in ten years.

Furthermore, the benefits are from a forecast, and it's not fact just yet.

Why not pitch for other industries? Sure, I am excited jobs have come to South Carolina, but the way the governor and the panel talks, it's like the Savior
has come.

Sorry, it more's complex than that.  

For years and years we've let tax rates sink to which they could not support agencies. Now, these guys think one company is going to save them from
their mistakes - and allow them to continue with the same status quo policies that put us in this state of red.

« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 08:43:22 PM by Jamie Sanderson »

matter of fact

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Re: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2010, 11:37:57 PM »
What's almost laughable is that Jamie never seemed to be concerned about our tax dollars bailing out GM and UAW, stealing share values from stock holders and giving it to the union in one of the biggest government sanctioned theft in history.


Georgetown Democrat

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Re: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2010, 10:55:49 AM »
Quick... Report that theft to the police, matter of fact. Give it a rest. You're the one that's laughable.

matter of fact

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Re: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2010, 01:57:55 PM »
Jamie: You can't read. I said "Government Sanctioned!"  And you clearly can't comprehend the magnitude of what the government did in that case, so I wont try to explain.   

You have ALL this concern about the Boeing Deal , but not a peep from you about the GM /UAW deal.  People see right through your one dimensional mindset?

Georgetown Democrat

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Re: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2010, 03:14:57 PM »
Quite a different situation between what you're comparing, but I'll let you live in that "fact" world all you want. Enjoy it.  ;D

And if you could read, you'd see the UAW got some ownership of the company and, in turn, it falls on them if they fail.
I'll share this with you, just for fun. http://www.mlive.com/auto/index.ssf/2009/11/republicans_john_mccain_michae.html

By the way, sarcasm escapes you. Until then.  :D
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 06:46:48 PM by Jamie Sanderson »

matter of fact

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Re: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2010, 12:21:04 AM »
It’s not different. Taxes dollars are given to a business or group with the intent that it will be for the benefit of the taxpayers.

You're complaining that Boeing has not "guaranteed" its here for the long haul an a mere $170 million. What about the $50 billion GM and UAW got? What guarantee did they give that they would change their business structure to make them more profitable? Obviously nothing, because GM still lost $1.2 Billion in the 3rd quarter after being given a $50 Billion loan and you said nothing about this tax dollar boondoggle.

If the GM had filed bankruptcy, the way other companies in the US have to, the Government still could have loaned GM the same $50 billion your article claims was not available. The Union contract would have been null and void, debt to other creditors would be renegotiated and GM could start fresh and renegotiate a contract with the union and vendors that could make GM profitable, then everyone would get in line and get their fair share under the law. Secured and unsecured creditors would collect accordingly. Under normal bankruptcy laws the union would not have gotten ownership shares over secured share holders.

Instead, as you admit, "they got some ownership". To get “some ownership” they had to steal it from someone else. More shares of GM just didn't magically appear.

And your warped mind thinks that's fair?

Do you ever wonder why no one takes you seriously?

Lee Padgett

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Re: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2010, 11:36:15 AM »
Wonder if Boeing is considering moving/opening more plants in this area as contracts etc, expire in Washington state. Maybe (hopefully) this explains the huge amounts of money being given.
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Georgetown Democrat

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Re: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2010, 11:12:25 PM »
If you think they were "stolen" and so on, file a complaint. Obviously, no one agrees with you.

And, as far as "no one" taking me seriously, you really need to come from behind the curtain
yourself to make such a claim.

Until then.  :'(

matter of fact

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Re: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2010, 11:41:00 PM »


:'(? I'm LMAO ;D. at you.

Once again you have no intelligent reply justifying the taking of shares from legitimate share holders and giving them to someone else, (the union), so you resort to dumbassisms. 

After going through two bankruptcies at the steel mill, I'm surprised you can't recognize how contemptible this action was.

Georgetown Democrat

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Re: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2010, 02:20:35 PM »
The shares you speak of could of been taken from the shareholders by the company itself. The company was helped and the workers received ownership in their company, giving incentive to those who sit on their ass to actually make the company work. Now, for someone who sits behind a curtain throwing ridicule out, I am surprised you can't man up and stand behind your strong views.

I, however, am not afraid. The union workers will lose just as much as shareholders will if the company fails. That's a matter of fact.

So, what's wrong with union workers owning a little of the company they've made profits for in years past? What's wrong with them owning shares that have lost value? What's wrong with them wanting to own what they work for?

Laugh all you want. What's done is done, so live with it.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2010, 05:10:19 PM by Jamie Sanderson »

matter of fact

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Re: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2010, 06:19:25 PM »
Jamie says "So, what's wrong with union workers owning a little of the company they've made profits for in years past?"

You got to be kidding; those so called profits were eaten up a long time ago. Do I need to remind you GM and the Union, because of their crappy performance over numerous years, had to be bailed out to the tune of $50 billion dollars and your argument is that this type of performance is worthy of a bonus of company ownership union members who played a key roll in this crappy performance. 

Again, you have produced one of your typically foolish arguments.

I'm sure you were up in arms when Wall Street gave bonus to its players.
But, you think its okay to reward poor performing union workers with company ownership.

You don't understand simple math.  GM's owners are shareholders, when a group that does not own share, or has few shares,  is given more shares,  those who legitimately owned shares either have less or have been devalued.

For someone who always talks in tongues of "fairness", I'm astounded by your position.

Your problem is you never can admit the union is in the wrong.  That's why you are one dimensional and not taken seriously.

I can’t wait for you to post your argument  about how it’s fair that union Cadillac health care plans are not taxed when other Americans, who have similar health care plans, but are not union members, are taxed.   

Georgetown Democrat

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Re: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2010, 06:59:02 PM »
You only think it's foolish because you stand on your one-sided views and will not see or agree with mine. Furthermore, you remain behind closed
doors and decide to insult me. That's fine. I can take it.

However, if you want to be taken seriously, you'll reveal yourself and come out from behind the curtain. Arguing fairness, is it when one person
hides and one does not? I can admit I haven't been fair in that aspect in years past.

You can stand behind the corporate side all you want. I stand behind corporate as well at times - like the votes for concessions and what ArcelorMittal
has offered us to go back to work.

You say: "Your problem is you never can admit the union is in the wrong."

The union as a whole has helped my family and families all over the country. The union has made it better for working people in this country in various
aspects of the field. Child labor is a key point.

I am not here to convince you - I won't try.

Just remember one thing, though. I can stand behind what I say with my real name. Can you?

BTW - The "Cadillac" plans you refer to. How about step yourself in a steel mill, paper mill, other harmful industry and provide for a family. I believe these
workers - union or not - are afforded a high-quality plan. Today, there is work that needs to be continued. But the rhetoric continues...

http://www.usw.org/media_center/news_articles?id=0479

« Last Edit: January 16, 2010, 07:01:47 PM by Jamie Sanderson »

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Re: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2010, 07:01:45 PM »
It seems that the Union does a better job of representing its' membership than Bill O'Riley does in looking out for you.  Hahah  Matter Of Fact, I would call Bill O'Riley and bring this to his attention so he can do something about it.   Union Yes

matter of fact

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Re: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2010, 12:06:53 AM »
How funny is this?  "Unemployed" is bragging about how great the union has done representing its members, but he's UNEMPLOYED!!!, that in itself sad, but laughable.

Jamie: How’s does knowing who I’m strengthen your pathetic argument. I don’t need to know who you or “Unemployed” is to debate you. My position doesn’t change because of your identity. If I told you who I was you’d still look foolish. Speaking of foolish, Child labor?  What the heck is that all about? The union saved you and your family and other American families from child labor? We need to hear more about this.

The questions to you should be answering are;

1) Why are you concern about Government spending a mere $170 million, when you didn’t appear to give a rat’s rear end about Government spending over $50 billion?

2) What did the GM workers do to earn shares of GM? I‘ll remind you those workers, along with management, ran the GM to the  brink of bankruptcy, only to be saved by $50 billion dollar tax dollar bailout and then lost $1.2 billion in the 3rd qtr of ’09.  Here’s a hint: The answer is: They didn’t do anything to EARN it.

3) What justifies union members being exempted from a tax on Cadillac health plans?  Do not give me this “dangerous job” crap. You just admitted people other than union members work in those dangerous fields.

And for your info, I've worked in a paper mill, a steel mill and in  a plant that manufactured for the aircraft industry, business like; Boeing, Grumman,  McDonald Douglas,  Airbus, etc. and I worked in these facilities longer than you’ll ever dream of working in a steel mill.

That doesn’t entitle me to be treated differently in this great country that was founded on the principles of:  all men are create equal,  Not the principle that all men are created equal, unless you belong to  a union and are owed payback from the President, who in turns gives you shares of a company you didn't earn and tries to cut a deal  so you wont have to pay taxes for his health care plan.

Georgetown Democrat

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Re: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2010, 03:44:39 PM »
Such bitterness...  :o

1) You try your best to compare state government with the federal government. Although they spend money, the items at hand are vastly different.
I'll let you do the homework on it. I already have. I, however, am not paid to educate so do it yourself.

2) Look, you obviously dislike unions. What you need to understand is that the deal is done - not by you or me - and the GM workers should own some
stake in the company they work for. They are both in it together - company and labor. If they fail now, it's their fault. I blamed the CEOs who allowed
their product to get cheapened by overseas deals and I blamed workers for not taking their jobs seriously and thinking the pie never disappears. You don't
read real well because I actually said workers need to get off their ass and treat their jobs more seriously.

3) I didn't say that union members should be exempt. I said both union and nonunion workers should be exempt. They should be afforded
a high-quality plan. And yes, they've earned it. How about tell me the ratio between a retiree from a coal mine, paper mill or steel mill and their life
expectancy. It's not long, generally.  For the decades the people put in a mill, they deserve to be taken care of. Their families do as well.

Which is why I was in favor of a single-payer plan, not this watered-down public option.

You may say you've worked inside mills, but I question what kind of work it was. It could have been more of a white-collar job more than being on the
shop floor and actually getting dirty.

Now, anytime you want to discuss this further, e-mail me. We can meet and have a civil discussion. Otherwise, keep coming here and enjoy seeing what
you write. That's my offer.

Can you stand behind what you say?



iceman

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Re: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2010, 05:42:23 PM »
 Quote from Jamie:If they fail now, it's their fault. I blamed the CEOs who allowed
their product to get cheapened by overseas deals and I blamed workers for not taking their jobs seriously and thinking the pie never disappears. You don't
read real well because I actually said workers need to get off their ass and treat their jobs more seriously.
 
 


What happened to the steel mills pie? Same thing.
Protect your gun rights, spay or neuter idiots that know nothing about firearms or hunting. (Changed just for you J.S., is this a little better?HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA)

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Re: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2010, 06:24:06 PM »
Jamie, I commend you for you ability and skills to present the facts here so people can do the research for themselves.  However, some people are so close minded they could care less what the facts are.  They have their made up and so be it.  It's sorta like a wife loving her abusive husband and remains to stay with him.  Sadly the wife is murdered.  The wife ignores the fact that he is abusive and she is in danger.  You can only help the people who care to help themselves. 

The union is the only thing that stands in the way of greedy and corrupt businesses from abusing it's workforce.  The only reason there is some stability in the workplace now is because business people know the conquences.  The people would organize provided them under Federal Law.  The union is the reason we have the labor laws in place today that protects the working people.  Look at what the small business community and the SC Chamber of Commerce was successful in as relating to illegal immigration.  These business groups were able to have the SC Labor Dept. give the businesses a 3 day advance notice before inspecting for illegal's.  How sad!!  I would rather have a union officer looking out for me than Fox News with Bill Oriley!!  These extreme right wing nuts is what feeds the turmoil in our Country!  Wouldn't it be nice as these wing nuts advocate for everyone in this country to carry a weapon and the differences could be settled as they want it to be.  You already see how they murder Doctors that perform legal abortions.  These idiots do this because of the Jim Jones mentality they possess.

Jamie, the point is you can't educate fools.  They can only drink the Fox News Kool Aid and do what they are instructed to do.  So Sad.  You keep up the good work and may God continue to bless you and this Great Country.

iceman

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Re: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2010, 06:56:01 PM »
Maybe if you drink some of that good ol' koolaid you wouldnt be "unemployed".  Let's take a look at another steel mill that is close by-Nucor. When the economy is good them guys make probally 3 times what AM guys make and their is NO UNION! As a matter of fact if they tried to get in a union they probally wouldnt have a job. If you have a job that doesnt treat you fair, doesnt pay you what you are worth then their is a simple solution- QUIT. Unions had their time and place but unions do nothing now but take care of lazy behind, good for nothing scum.
Protect your gun rights, spay or neuter idiots that know nothing about firearms or hunting. (Changed just for you J.S., is this a little better?HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA)

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Re: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2010, 07:31:57 PM »
The employees of Nucor  who are fine people work there because they need a job and they need the money.  When the economy turned south they worked 24 hours a week and were hurting.  There was talk that they were discussing organizing and forming a union.  Why?  Because several of the employees who work there came from the Steel Mill here in Georgetown.  These workers couldn't hardly make it.  They have to pay for their insurance and they have no defined Benefit Pension Plan.  Nucor also doesn't have Health care for its retirees like thousands of other businesses.  I would like to know how many businesses in Georgetown provide their retirees health care. Fortunately for most of the nucor workers had  wives working and had income coming in.  The economy has taken its toll on thousands of Companies who didn't have unions.  The unions didn't create this problem but it did provide the workers some needed assistance during this period of time.  The unions will always needed as long as we have corrupt bussiness people who screw their workers and violate labor laws.

Lee Padgett

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Re: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2010, 08:44:54 PM »
To further splinter the topic at hand.

Jamie quote:  How about tell me the ratio between a retiree from a coal mine, paper mill or steel mill and their life
expectancy. It's not long, generally.


I am sure there are health hazards surrounding these jobs, but, I have read and have always believed that shift work proves to be much more of strain on a human being than any thing they are exposed to at work. More and more research is showing that good sleeping habits raise the life expectancy of people.

And unemployed not everyone who disagrees with you and Jamie is an O"Reilly/Fox News Kool ade drinking fool. I do not like Unions, I think they have outlived their usefulness in this media driven society. I do not watch the talking heads on Fox or MSNBC they both have their agendas. As far as news goes it is good to get all perspectives and slice it down the middle.

As far as Nucor goes them not unionizing is probably why they still are working. We cannot force employers to pay more than they are able. When we do they look for cheaper labor (illegals/temp. labor services the abusers of the homeless) or they leave the country.

And I am furious at this administration for giving Union cadillac plans a pass on the taxes for this health care reform.

And another splinter--This mandate happening in Massachusetts is not just a mandate on Democrat fiscal irresponsibility it should serve as a wake up call to both parties. Independents are tired of the tax and spend policies of Dems and the righteous indignation toward social policies by Repubs. and we are swinging elections right and left because we have no where to go.
"The death of objectivism and small government can be attributed to emotional politics." Liberty Laura

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Re: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2010, 09:35:44 PM »
Mr. Lee Padgett, with all due respect, I totally disagree with your primise that unions have outlived its usefulness in this media driven society.  Who owns the media?  The same people with with the same motive as the one who runs the local media.  I feel sorry for you if you believe everything you read or hear on the so call media.  What a joke.  The greedy corporate thugs who avoid the laws of this nation and run overseas with taxpayer incentives are whores!!  These Greedy Corporate Thugs may reside in the USA but in my opinion they're traitors.  They make their products overseas and then ship it back into this country making trillions of dollars more in profit than making it in the USA with USA workers.  You support this!!  For every dollar that we export we import 5 dollars.  You don't see the greedy corporate thugs screaming about this do you.  You don't see the Media trying to educate the America people about this unfair trade policy.  The american people have to be see it then they believe it like you believing in the Media Lee.  This is the problem in the USA.  I for one don't have any confidence in the media to report the facts or report the stories that need to be reported.  They refer to people like me as being radical.  I would rather be compared to be radical than stupid.  You killing me Lee. Hahaha 

matter of fact

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Re: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2010, 09:49:19 PM »
Unemployed:

Are you telling us Nucor employees, who were working 24 hours per week, were thinking of unionizing, like the Georgetown Mill,  A mill that’s is closed and whose employees are working zero hours per weeks. I have to call prairie cakes on that one.

Jamie:

I stated all people should be treated equally. You think that’s bitterness? I think that’s American.

As for your other points:

1) You claim: Items at hand at the State level are vastly different than federal level. Once again, prairie cakes!
Taxes are collected and money was given (or will be) to a business in hopes to benefit the general public. There is no difference, except the name of the business the money was given to. You started this post and your position is blatantly hypocritical because of who the money went to, that is wrong.

2) I don’t dislike Unions. In fact I’ve been a member of a union and I think you should be able to join any group you wish. What I dislike is special treatment because some group donated to a politician in order to buy favors. You, one the other hand,  think that workers should be forced, by law, to join the union. I think the union is a business and they should have to sell their product or service like everyone else. If you’ve got a good product or service, then your customers will buy it . You don't need the government to force customers to buy. 

3) What about truckers, railroad worker, pilots, fireman, police,  nurses, teachers, chemical plant workers, shipyard workers, construction workers, military, night shift workers at the 7-11 and the list goes on until no one will have to pay the tax, then where will the money come from? Ans: more taxes. If this health care plan is so good why is everyone having to be bribed to support it?

FYI: I started on the shop floor, sweeping and cleaning the shops; I worked, for years, to make my way up, so I would have a better job. Many times I left the plant I was dirtier than the guys who worked with me. Why do you think getting dirty means you worked harder than someone who didn’t get dirty? That being said, it makes me wonder if you’re the one who’s bitter.

The offer to meet privately sounds like you are not too confident to debate publically. This is a public forum and I can’t understand why you would want a private forum.  There’s nothing you can tell me in private can’t be said here.  Meeting in private would not allow the countless readers to see what we are discussing and weigh in on the subject when they desire. Heck, you may even win someone over with your well thought out post. It also would give the appearance that we had something to hide, just like those behind closed door deals for the health care legislation. We wouldn’t want that.

I still want to hear about that Child Labor issue!

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Re: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2010, 09:52:03 PM »
Quote
As far as Nucor goes them not unionizing is probably why they still are working. We cannot force employers to pay more than they are able. When we do they look for cheaper labor (illegals/temp. labor services the abusers of the homeless) or they leave the country.

Umm, so you admit that rather taking care of American workers and paying them what they deserve companies look to profits first and people second.

I'm sorry, but I have to chime in and say that this is the reason unions still have significance - they fight to keep jobs in America. Nucor only survived because they cut profit sharing, which is the bulk of the employee's pay there. That's not guaranteed income. A base wage is. In result, they suffered as well.

The local union members voted themselves out of a job. Lee, you need to look at ArcelorMittal at a whole and see what they are doing worldwide before you make the comment referencing what they can afford. They were able to afford enough to allow the local mill to operate again. The workers didn't like the fact they would have to make sacrifices. Their fault, not ArcelorMittal's.

Right now, the union here is the barrier between the company hiring new people for lesser pay.

I commend Jamie for stating facts and not getting to the part where it becomes insulting in doing so.

Lee Padgett

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Re: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2010, 09:59:19 PM »
MR. UNEMPLOYED if you look back at my other posts I have repeatedly said Buy American, shop local, stay away from chain stores (unless they are franchised) and mega monster banks. The quest for lower and lower prices did this to us along with employee greed. I wish we had not sent one company overseas. I had the poor judgment to support Bill Clinton and the Republican congress with NAFTA. I thought is was only for North America i.e. Canada US Mexico. I never thought, but should have realized, it would be bastardized and abused. And if you would have read my post I said view all media and then split down the middle. I have no use for them and the media driven society I am referring to is the internet which at this time is still a powerful tool to use. When you are part of a union you are fighting for those who actually produce and those who actually do nothing productive instead of getting glory for your own merits. It is a collective mindset which is not anything I would ever be a part of. If you are part of the unions on Broadway and you pick up a broom to clean a spill and you are not part of the custodial union and it is not in your job description you get admonished. That is totally crap. You cannot lend a helping hand to a fellow worker if you are hired for one thing and trouble shoot outside of your assigned duty. Many apologies for irking you but I prefer to be proactive rather than inactive.  
"The death of objectivism and small government can be attributed to emotional politics." Liberty Laura

Lee Padgett

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Re: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2010, 10:06:36 PM »
Moderator, there was a contract done between union officials and AM a couple of years ago to bring the Georgetown Mill pay inline with other mills around the country. Just to bring the pay wages to a level field ( and if this is erroneous please someone correct me). The cost of living in this area is not as high as in other areas of the country. And if AM could have afforded to keep workers at the current pay scale and stayed productive, do you not think they would have remained open and continued operations without asking for concessions? Once again it was what they could afford. As India and China continue to grow they will end up paying higher and higher wages and all the corporate fleeing will have been for nothing but in the meantime this is what we are dealing with in our quest to help industrialize other nations.
"The death of objectivism and small government can be attributed to emotional politics." Liberty Laura

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Re: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2010, 10:09:44 PM »
Thank you Lee.  I think I owe you an apology.  We seem to have a lot in common.  I would like to point one thing out about NAFTA.  President George Bush had NAFTA almost wrapped up and When Bill Clinton was campaigning he stated he was in favor of NAFTA.  The unions were dead set against it.  When it comes right down to it, party labels don't mean nothing in washington.  MONEY is what control this country.  We have the best politicians money can buy.  

Lee Padgett

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Re: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2010, 10:20:01 PM »
Apologies not necessary. I like debate. We can all learn from it (tolerance mostly) and get an inside view of the opposing side or ourselves. And yes we have the best politicians money can buy. And we can tell the dollar aint going for much these days.
"The death of objectivism and small government can be attributed to emotional politics." Liberty Laura

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Re: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2010, 10:45:02 PM »
I ought to be an educator. Here's my comment.

Quote
The union has made it better for working people in this country in various aspects of the field. Child labor is a key point.

Since you can't understand what unions have done in regards with child labor, I'll share a link. I have to warn you. You have to read and
it's lengthy. No audio, mind you.

http://www.continuetolearn.uiowa.edu/laborctr/child_labor/about/us_history.html

Here's something else you may not realize. When companies purchase health care for their employees, discounts on the purchases are
offered. Do you realize that industries have saved dollars in buying bulk coverage? Are you jealous that happens? Unions have nothing
to do with purchasing - only negotiating coverage for the employees. What's sad is it has to even come to a point where a union has
to ask for high-quality coverage. The paper mill would love our coverage, if offered.

There is a difference between the two deals. You'll have to trust me. I can't sit here and profess a entire book to you. It's really simple
to find out, however. Do you realize that they are different in a way? Come on, it's really easy to see.

The local union is a member of the Chamber of Commerce, so I know it's a business. And they offer a damn good product. That's why
I didn't complain when union dues came out each pay period. I paid for what I got. And where did I say I wanted workers forced into
a union? Point it out. Putting words in my computer, I see. I think workers ought to realize a union is what they make of it. Sadly, our
local has been made a mockery because older workers sit out and collect retirement from the old mill while younger workers collect nothing.

Now, as far as the privacy thing you mentioned. It's not I who is being private, matter of fact. I am sure your SS card or birth certificate
doesn't have listed as such. If you consider this a public forum, then be public with your real name.

I am confident in debating. This is your safe haven of insecurity. You see, I write on five blogs with my real name. I write in the Georgetown
Times with my real name. I send letters to congressmen with my real name. And, when challenged or given a response, people use their
real names as well.

Bill Hills. Tom Slagsvol. Tom Swatzel. Yeah, they respond with their real names. So, if you think I am afraid to debate, you can be very assured
I am not.

For the record, I have put myself in the public spotlight many times. People have come to me, disagreed and walked away. A few here have
come to me and told me who they are. I will not divulge their names.

Using the "public forum" against me when you remain in the dark only tells me that you want this public, but you want no responsibility for
what you post. I can understand. But, do not expect me to engage further.

Knowing who another person is doesn't mean anyone has anything to hide. You, on the other hand, are hiding. Stay in the dark. Come into
the light.

My offer still stands. My e-mail address is public. If you want to meet and discuss issues further, we can. If you want to comment on my
blog, feel free.

Otherwise, know that it is you who continues to debate in secrecy and it is I who takes the hits. I do have other things to work on, so
excuse me if I don't frequent here as much as you'd like.

You have my contact info.



matter of fact

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Re: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2010, 12:49:30 AM »
How am I using the public forum against you? You started this post.  If you post something that’s ludicrous, hypocritical or wrong, I’m going to call you on it.  That’s why I told you to be more thoughtful in your post.

Like the Child labor issue you brought up out of the blue, you wrote “The union has made it better for working people in this country in various aspects of the field. Child labor is a key point.”  I asked to hear more about this and you directed me to a site with the most recent action, in this country, regarding child labor laws was from 1938. This is 2010. This is why Lee says he believes unions have out lived their usefulness. If I was going to be espousing the virtues of the Union in this country, I certainly would have picked a more current subject.

In another example about State and Federal Government you wrote “Do you realize that they are different in a way? Come on, it's really easy to”
Come on Jamie. If it’s so easy to see, tell us how they are different. That’s how you debate.

We can go on. Another ex. What does the fact that a company buys a health care plan at a discounted rate have to due with the issues of a group being exempted from a government imposed tax on Cadillac Plans. If the tax is put in place and your plan is above the threshold, you should pay, that's equal treatment under the law.

Like I have said, debate the issues. If I told you my name was George Palmer how would you debate the issue differently? It has become obvious you want the issue to be about me. I want the issue to be about the issue.

Finally, I didn’t put words in you computer. I have read post on this site that cite your desire to repeal South Carolina’s Right to Work Laws. The Right to Work laws protects workers from being compelled to join or financially support a union. If you think the right to work law is a good and fair law, then publically say so. Say; “I support the right to work laws” and I will stand corrected. Otherwise, I will stand by my interpretation of what I have read and said.

Lee Padgett

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Re: Panel Approves Another $100 Million for Boeing
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2010, 09:00:24 AM »
Jamie, I hate to point this out, but at the moment what you and all the younger workers/union members have paid for is no job. The ones with nothing to lose shut down a huge employer in this area. I cannot see how that is good. And no matter how much a company saves by buying "bulk" healthcare they still have to pay huge sums to get it and just like taxes and fees and utilities businesses are charged a higher rate because people think they can afford it.

And as far as trying to get people to come from under cover--I realized a long time ago on the Times discussion--it ain't gonna happen. People, for whatever reason or whatever position they are in need the anonymity. This board needs the anonymity. Some of the posters are whistle blowers and that type of thing actually serves us well. If unemployed used his/her real name then there are those that could say oh he/she is just a nut job, but bringing up points like dual office holding without knowing if this person is friend or foe, let's us look at the issue at hand and not the person.

To me it helps speaking with the nameless and faceless. I have no preconceived notions about them related to personal matters.

« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 04:43:32 PM by Lee Padgett »
"The death of objectivism and small government can be attributed to emotional politics." Liberty Laura